COUNSELING AS ADULTS - IT IS ALL IN THE PROCESS
Copyright © 2001 Revised 2003
Roger N. Meyer
[This article stems from an email the author sent to a
licensed clinical social worker counseling his first AS/NT couple. The NT
spouse first sought individual marriage counseling prior to her husband's
recent AS diagnosis. Her husband is in the midst of post-diagnostic
depression. There is a likelihood that since he didn't seek the diagnosis
on his own that he will continue to question the validity of the diagnosis
and remain in denial.
The AS client has developed a genuine trust relationship
with his therapist. Nevertheless, the therapist is having major difficulty
moving the client away from ruminative and perserverative thought patterns,
and is concerned with the client's short-term memory issues. This author
more thoroughly considers the issues of diagnosis ownership and working with
clients with short-term memory challenges in separate articles.
This paper was first submitted to the Autism99
International Internet Conference sponsored in England held between November
3 and November 13, 1999. The conference was sponsored by The Shirley
Foundation and hosted at a site developed by RMR Design. During the running
of the conference, some 55,000 registered participants viewed over eighty
papers by authors in the field of autism. This article appeared in its
earlier form on that forum, and has been recently modified -- as of 2003.]
I've found that when my clients lock up and remain
stuck in a perseverative thought pattern it is best to process the dynamic
itself rather than attempt to return to content. Until we both process the
effect of the dynamic itself, we can't make any forward progress. I've also
found that when this occurs, initially enlisting the aid of the other spouse
to redirect the conversation doesn't help. The counselor's intervention
should be directly focused on a direct interaction with the client without
the presence of a third party. There is too much opportunity for
distraction or a likely desire to "say the right thing" rather than to focus
on how the right thing is being expressed.
It will take some backing and filling for you and the
client to arrive at a variety of best approaches. Nature of the words, the
general tone of the conversation, a sense of when it would be useful to
intervene and when to let the conversation wind out for a while determine my
approach. The clients' adoption of a particular conversational approach may
stem from a variety of causes, some of which have to do with cognitive
processing. For example, he may be plumbing the depths of his long-term
memory to arrive at an old expressive script for the current situation. He
may be unable to distinguish between his current experience and others in
the past that are related but different. (This latter condition occurs when
the client has known problems with generalization and experiential
differentiation challenges a common executive function issue with Asperger
syndrome persons). He may be trying to come up with a novel response
appropriate to the current circumstance but his thought pattern has taken a
one-way detour to old history.
In each instance, you may want to explore not only the
dynamic itself, but what in your interaction has led up to it. By
discovering and laying bare the antecedent causes for a certain
communication behaviour, you can build the platform for future work with
your client to help him monitor his behaviour. I've found it helpful to
understand how the client experiences learning, and then to use the senses
or cognitive hooks he uses to teach him how to monitor his own
communication. For example, I ask the client to attend to our body
postures, our facial expressions, our tone of voice, but also our bodily
sensations and what we hear, see and "feel". I mean "feel" quite
literally. If the client is leaning forward on his chair, or gesticulating
with his hands, or expressing a double or confused message through a
mismatch between posture and words, we look at that. I use full-length
mirrors for visual cueing. (At present, I do not use video feedback. I
can't afford it, but for the visual learners in the crowd, I know it would
be a powerful tool.) I use squeezable rubber balls so that the client can
literally "get a grip" on his words by noticing and gauging how he clutches
the ball in his hand, tightly or loosely, as we speak. I use a wall-clock
with a prominent second-hand to help illustrate the value of self-imposed
silence to construct "natural" breaks in the flow of conversation. At
first, the breaks occasioned by these formal methods seem unnatural, but
presenting them this way ties communication components to sensual
experience, and expands the conversant's awareness of the environment.
Gradually, the exercises become less stressful. We work on gradual
extinction of these formal monitoring methods as the client searches his
response "tool box" for behaviours more natural to him. If he doesn't have
an appropriate response, we observe others in casual and formal
conversation, and observe their conventions and cues, and agree upon which
ones seem appropriate for our work. When moving towards more sophisticated
monitoring techniques, I never start with methods foreign to his basic
expressive vocabulary. Too-different, as well as too-much too-fast is a
formula for disaster.
One key to all of this work is not to make it too
detailed or intensive at first. Initially, there is a lot of talk just to
determine the range of the client's style of communication and to establish
trust between us. I introduce processing the dynamic of the conversation
very gradually, so that the client is not overwhelmed with detail and so
that he doesn't become so self-conscious that the flow is broken by
hesitancy and anticipation of an interruption. Although there are
similarities to the communication styles of my clients, getting to know
them, and forming a unique relationship convinces me that there is no real
fomulary for the work.
Because each of your AS clients is unique, there can be
no one-size-fits-all approach.
Back to your client
Due to the recency of his diagnosis, his wife is as mystified
about AS as you are. To introduce you to couples issues of Asperger
syndrome and neurotypical spouses, one good resource is an Internet site
built around such concerns. That is the FAAAS (Families of Adults with
Asperger Syndrome) web site. It can be found at:
http://www.faaas.org
Another more positive and supportive website oriented towards
repair and preservation of the marriage is ASPIRES, located at:
http://www.aspires-relationships.com/
You will find material of direct relevance in the
articles in the FAAAS web site under the "Tony Attwood" section. This
section contains a guide to adult AS communication behaviors, the transcript
of a workshop that Dr. Attwood conducted in March 1999, through the auspices
of FAAS and NAS (the English National Autistic Society). A second
transcript from his May 2000 session in Coventry is also at the site, and
tapes of a third presentation for spouses at Cape Cod, MA in November, 2000
can be ordered from that site. In the same location, there are two excerpts
from his book "Asperger syndrome: A Guide for Parents and Professionals.".
One excerpt deals with the dynamics of the diagnostic process, while the
other excerpt is his Australian Asperger Syndrome Scale, a Likert scale
designed for parent and caregiver use in identifying Asperger syndrome in
children. Attwood's book remains the best single source in print on AS.
The site also contains a direct link to OASIS (On-Line Asperger Syndrome
Information Source), a mother lode web site created and maintained by Barb
Kirby. Her site is a cornucopia of basic and advanced information on
Asperger syndrome. That Website is found at:
http://www.udel.edu/bkirby/asperger/
Simon Baron-Cohen, developer of the concept of Theory of
Mind, recently authored book (1998) describes successful training techniques
to teach theory of mind to high functioning autistic children and
adolescents. He is currently conducting research at Cambridge University
oriented to adult Asperger syndrome cognitive treatment modalities. It
might be useful to consult his book when dealing with some of the issues I
discuss below.
I've been working on line with the Non-Spectrum (NS)
spouse of a couple in England for nearly a year. Their local NAS affiliate
sent two field workers out to counsel the husband and wife separately. For
a while I was proposing some step by step instructions in managing daily
communication challenges between the wife and her husband which seemed to
have some limited success. Like your client, her husband is also recently
diagnosed, but in his case, he's not in denial. Theirs is a ten year
marriage, and she is finally getting over her spousal "rescue" orientation
and into serious self-care. Because her plight is common to many partners
of AS men, I started a discussion thread on a major closed email parent
listserv addressing the issue of NS/AS marriages and spousal communication
issues. The discussion in public and between private parties continues
today, and the matters raised there are the same as those shared by your
client's wife.
Communication challenges 101
Several things have occurred simultaneously in their
relationship. According to your client's wife, he's still into denial, and
she finds it hard to interest him in reading anything about AS, although
they've gotten the DX from a local psychologist. In my first and only call
to your client's wife, I proposed that her husband seek a medical diagnosis
from the only MD qualified to diagnose adult AS in our state. The value of
the medical diagnosis is that with it, he can get psychopharmaceutical
support to moderate dysthymia and anxiety, both of which are often present
even in the "mild cases." The prescriptive recipe for each patient is
unique, and if he has a good internist who has current knowledge of these
medications, he will be in good hands. Most psychiatrists are simply not
prepared to deal with high functioning adult autism, and where he resides,
far too many mental health professionals are heavily influenced by classical
psychodynamic thought. As you've discovered, using traditional talk therapy
of any kind does not work with him.
As I started to suggest above, some adults with AS do
respond well to cognitive/behavioural work, and using a cognitive
behavioural approach might produce some breakthroughs regarding his
communication process.
His ruminative thought patterns and perserverative
thinking are the mental equivalent of echolalia, and they serve the same
calming and self-centering function. In adults, such behavior is left over
from early childhood adaptive behavior that parents and other adults found
difficult to extinguish. If you think of his mental behavior as serving the
same function as the visible self-stimulatory physical behavioural
manifestations commonly found in younger children with autism ("stims"),
then it is easy to see that instead of extinguishing them outright, it is
more useful to move towards their gradual replacement and substitution with
behaviours which serve the same adaptive functions as stims do in children.
As he finds other behaviours more appropriate for communication, his less
functional responses will subside. Children can learn to substitute more
socially appropriate stims, or to take their most disruptive ones and
express them under "safe conditions" unobserved by others. Parents report
this substitution and response rationing process works quite well. Work
with adults can produce impressive results, especially where the stakes
involved are higher. It often takes the threat of one spouse to leave the
AS spouse to impress him with the seriousness of the failure of their
communication. I say "him" because the sex ratio of male to female AS
incidence appears to be in the range of 4:1.
When I first began to work with transition age young
adults, I often found myself wanting to use variants of "worse case
scenario" thinking with them in discussing their dysfunctional behaviours.
I quickly learned that such an approach eroded the trust base. Cajoling the
client with "if not now, when?" arguments, or badgering them to "just stop"
had a negative effect. There is an internally logical reason why AS persons
hold on to dysfunctional patterns of thought and behaviour. It may appear
perverse to others, but to the AS person, such behaviors were successful
survival responses in the distant past. For persons with excellent long
term memories that don't self-prune or fade with time, the disjunctive
consequences of their "time-warp" inappropriate response are not obvious to
them.
Even when they become aware of the inappropriateness of
their current response patterns, they nevertheless feel locked into
revisiting them time after time. This behaviour is obsessive and compulsive
in appearance. For AS adults, time management and executive function
problems at work and in their other relationships and functions demonstrate
the frustrating effect of this ingrained behaviour.
The trick to working with persons exhibiting such
behaviour can be boiled down to a single word:
Patience
I've found that gradually, on their own speed, they can
appreciate the need to change for reasons of their own self- interest.
Where the counsellor comes into the picture is in assisting them to get from
this realization to its actualization. Clients bring in their own quiet
desperation about being stuck or unable to move in directions they know they
must. After trust is established, I move them in the direction of slight
discomfort by alluding to their original reasons for having sought help.
Since there is a charge behind that need, I help them access it as the
source of energy to tap while undergoing change. In doing this, I proceed
with great caution so as to avoid fostering dependence or learned
helplessness.
So far, more by flying by the seat of my pants than by
doing anything methodical, I've seen some significant shifts in my clients'
ability to function as verified by their own self-reports. We so often get
used to hearing reports of rapid change by neurotypical clients that
experiencing the same shift at a glacial pace with Asperger syndrome clients
is truly trying to our own sense of professional competence.
When I get frustrated with a given client's rate of
change, all I need to remind me of how slow a process change can be is to
look at my own 57 years, 55 of which were spent without a clue about my own
flavor of Asperger syndrome. Now I turn to other mental health
professionals both for case consultation and personal check-ins. I've been
fortunate to find other professionals willing to do this work with me.
According to your client's wife, you are the first
person he really trusts. That is a major breakthrough for anyone with AS.
For all recently diagnosed adults, self-trust and self-esteem are so low and
their self-definitions have been so dependent upon ascription of others that
many AS adults require a long time following diagnosis to trust others.
From this point forward, your client will have less trouble trusting others
as you help him strengthen his self-confidence.
Once he accepts his diagnosis and he isn't there yet,
you will be able to access a lot of his resistance much as an Aikido master
uses the energy of an opponent to succeed. He can learn to give himself the
same gift once he experiences its benign exercise from another trusted
person. That's you.
All of this will take time.
He's going through a stage of self-determination that
may take some time to complete. One factor complicating your client's
progress is that initially it was not his idea to seek a diagnosis. He rode
into the psychologist's office on the agenda of his spouse. Whenever this
happens, a person with inadequately formed self-concept can dismiss the
results precisely because the impetus for seeking the knowledge was not his
alone. Successful and more rapid progress towards personal change occurs
when the AS individual has an exclusive sense of ownership over the entire
diagnostic scenario.
Another complicating factor comes with the territory of
this neurobiological condition. Self-determination is an ongoing process
for everyone. For persons with AS, there is a strong need for closure and a
discomfort with incompleteness. The whole process of stopping to process a
conversation may leave him frustrated and feeling thwarted in a desire to
complete his monologues. It's your job to sense this frustration, and work
just at the outer edge of it. Once you understand his frustration
"triggers", you can help him identify them as well. That is advanced work,
but you can start it early, and by keeping it simple by remaining aware of
your task of focusing the work, you both can point to progress.
Depending on the degree of acceptance, and how soon
after the actual diagnosis the therapist works with the client, an AS adult
lives in a post-diagnostic world explainable by the very self-knowledge they
expend energy in denying and affirming at the same time. Even if their
knowledge was perfect, AS persons still harbor lingering doubts. They often
revisit imperfectly swept corner housing old dysfunctional habits. A life's
worth of low self-trust can't be overcome just through will power. In the
end, the product is never perfect because it is undergoing constant
bewildering modification. Resistance to change a diagnostic hallmark is not
overcome with an identity tag, even if the label "fits". One can't will the
brain to be different, but one can learn new positive behaviors that can
supplant negative or dysfunctional ones. This is as good as "willing".
Perhaps it is better, because the process appeals to the logic of many men
with Asperger syndrome. If the process is something they buy in to, then
they assume a sense of control over more parts of their lives they
experienced as chaotic and unpredictable.
A few "How-To's"
A brief, general remark about what follows. I believe that
many traditional therapy models can be counterproductive for people with
Asperger syndrome. Rather than starting from a stance of viewing the client
as someone with a disorder to be dealt with using the concept of
normalization and functional remediation, I've found it more effective to
employ the paradigms of progressive adult education. So much of what is
involved in working with high functioning autistic adults is new learning
and new insight that it makes little sense to approach personal work with a
medical overlay. The medical model inevitably calls "cure" and
normalization into play.
Autistic persons do not want to be cured. They are not
sick, although some of their behaviours are clearly dysfunctional. High
functioning autistic people also do not want to be made "normal." They see
themselves as different, and wish to be respected as persons with a built-in
neurological difference. Their brains operate differently. Because of the
neurobiological character of the disability, there are many things they
cannot change. Expecting them to do so is like asking a diabetic to produce
Insulin. It simply isn't going to happen.
Even though I've found it effective to approach each
adult client using the educational model, I realize that I am up against the
client's generally negative experiences with education at all levels. I
approach each client as a unique adult learner, and in doing so, don't allow
much room for categorical thinking. I do attend to any information they can
provide about how they learn and part of my assessment process involves
identification of specific learning disabilities. If I have questions about
these challenges, and if the resources are available, I ask the client to
seek a full adult functional evaluation conducted by a neuropsychologist and
as complete a specific learning disability screening as possible. So far,
in working with transition age young adults, their health plans or other
community service agency enrollment has made this possible. An informed
client makes a good student, especially when his subject matter is himself.
On to specifics
One way to start, even when your client is in a high
state of denial, is to focus on how he solves problems. The learning styles
of people with AS are often startlingly different than that of their
neurotypical peers. When he seems particularly stuck or ruminative,
surprise or distract him by introducing your problem: you don't understand
his problem-solving process. Could he explain it to you?
You may come up with your own ideas, but struggle
against letting them impede the direct information about to come at you.
Ask HIM for help with the problem of understanding how he is "working" now.
Engaging him in a mutual problem-solving task will simultaneously accomplish
several tasks. Placing a problem on the table can temporarily pull him away
from his inward focus. If he is a visual thinker and learner, use actual
objects to represent the problem on a desk or coffee table. If he is a
verbally oriented learner, encourage him to use his command of precise
language to pin down a description of how he solves this problem. If he
best learns through multi-sensory input, or favors a single sense, have him
indulge that one sense with the proviso that he must communicate so that you
understand the meaning of his communication without a lot of additional
interpretation from you. You are asking him to relate to "your" problem and
asking him to help you with it. This depersonalizes the process, and drains
hidden and unknown to you threat factors so that he can concentrate on
"your" problem.
Share your difficulty by using expressions that
objectify your concerns, and try to avoid any "you" statements.
Put simply, don't assume anything. You have no
more magic power to guess what is going on in his head than he has in
guessing what is going on in yours. Keep an open mind. You are both about
to learn something.
By intervening with a request for common work, you are
taking back control of the interaction at the same time you invite him to
join with you in a common task. This may be a new experience for him, and
each new experience will force his own dysfunctional rumination further into
the background while he works in the present tense with you. Rehearse your
approach out loud with some self-talk prior to seeing him. You can also
present him with the "acceptable" process of self-talk.
Though it may seem obvious to you, many persons with AS
are unaware of just how much silent self-talk they engage in. By modelling
audible self-talk yourself, you can encourage him to externalize his own
self-talk process. I know you wouldn't want a babbling self-talker to walk
out of your office into public spaces, but in the privacy of your
relationship with him, you can both do the self-talk modelling as well as
accomplish a second level of training for him. The second level teaches him
how to safely handle self-talk out loud. Teaching deliberate process
verbalization is considered a best practice in cognitive rehabilitation
therapy. Largely, that is what your work is all about: your focus is to
help the AS client gain, rather than recover, critical executive function
skills.
Once you get to this stage in your work with him, you
can enlist his spouse as an active communication skills training partner.
What she may experience with him, in the safety of their relationship, is
this novel (for him) method of expression, something he now knows how to
deliberately share with her because he has a problem he is working out. In
their own work with one another, his first issues may be totally
self-centered. As she learns to tolerate his self-talk, he will be drawn
into desiring reciprocity from her just as he has experienced it with you.
The process will not be quite the same as your work with him, because you
don't have a complex history of past communication failure with him.
They both have that history with one another. In their
relationship, they have developed their own set of communication codes.
Working under the conditions of that background noise may make their new
work with one another very difficult. It can also be very exciting and
scary to both of them. What they are both doing in the process is
unlearning and dismantling one style of dysfunctional, non-informative
communication as they construct another one. There too, just as with his
working with you, there will be backing and filling and a lot of "seat of
the pants flying". But this will be healthy, non-threatening risk taking
because it can always be focused on an objectified "thing" a problem.
Initially objectifying a problem removes much of the
emotive load that impedes learning. Learning to consciously objectify a
problem is a process that must be taught. You can develop a set of signals
or shorthand to make this "stop-and-process procedure" an automatic
behaviour after many repetitions. For the ease of his learning, it may be
advisable that his spouse uses the same signals so that the process is
reinforced in the same way at home. Initially, all of you will be
self-conscious about the process. Later, they can develop subtler, less
disruptive means to halt dysfunctional communication behaviour in which they
both indulge.
There is one last topic relating to work with AS adults
worthy of note. I'm sure that his spouse first came to you with a concern
that her husband didn't show his emotions easily or at all. Persons with AS
have difficulty identifying and then expressing their emotions. Some
materials describing AS refer to apparent "flat" affect. This is an
accurate but misleading description. It is accurate from the point of view
of an observer or a diagnostician. This characterization is neither
accurate nor helpful for working in a therapeutic relationship with an AS
client. What you encounter isn't "flat" as much as a condition expressive
of a state of mind that is more aptly described by the client as "I don't
know what to call it" phenomenon. For the therapist, it is important to
recognize that even if the client is successful in identifying a feeling
state, he's had a lifetime of failure with expressing it appropriately.
As a mediator, I've long recognized that when people get
stuck or keep repeating themselves or are silent and truly at a loss for
words, it is because their needs aren't being met. They stay stuck or
silent until they are "heard". For persons as intelligent as most persons
with Asperger syndrome are, this condition presents both the client and the
therapist with a unique challenge.
Housed in the body of the AS adult is a child who has
yet to develop an appropriate vocabulary to describe undifferentiated
feeling states. The client truly lacks a vocabulary to differentiate, name,
and express his emotional needs. This leads his neurotypical partners into
a regular game of twenty questions of "Name that feeling" often with no
clearer understanding at the twentieth question than before the first.
Although many AS persons are highly verbal, there is something "not quite
right" about their use of words which is strange and often distancing to
others. Technically speaking, this is a language pragmatics problem. The
French have the perfect phrase to describe this: "Je ne sais quois."
Apart from sheer eccentricity, there is both a receptive and expressive
blindness to emotional states of the person himself as well as others in
that person's world. When you encounter AS adults whose coping mechanisms
and adaptive scripts effectively mask this deficiency, it is a shock to
discover just how profound is this absence of basic skill in an otherwise
advanced semantic pragmatic language development.
If you ask many AS adults what they are feeling at a
given moment, a common answer is "I don't know". Believe me, we don't. Not
at that moment, anyway, and not with the pressure applied to come up with a
response the other person can make sense of.
What you encounter with many AS adults are persons who
have never had the formal training as they must have to identify and express
their emotional needs in a manner which is both socially correct and
appropriate for the occasion. One of the major reasons why adults with AS
self-isolate, often dragging their mates and families along with them, is
because they have experienced a lifetime of negative consequences flowing
from inappropriate expression of those needs. Avoidance is a natural way of
averting future pain. That's exactly what many adults with AS do. As a
relationships therapist, you have met one of very few Asperger syndrome
adults who has made it to a stage of some kind of intimate relationship and
some kind of marriage. This condition is not typical of the vast majority
of adults with the diagnosis. They remain single and singular. For the
most part, their lives are spent in physical and emotional isolation from
others, but with a great longing early in life that this not be so. In
later years, it is common to experience resignation to and even a defiant
preference for an unconnected social existence.
Getting a handle on the first part of your personal work
with him will be a challenge, but once you begin work on process, no matter
how small the pieces you cut a problem into, you both will experience
success. One very common feature of AS is the presence of specific learning
disabilities. Many of them remain life-long challenges. Breaking a
multifaceted problem into smaller components has proven to be an effective
technique in teaching Asperger Syndrome children. Learning disabled adults
appear to benefit from the same approach.
Another technique to try is to propose challenges that
go just to the edge of his tolerance for accepting change. At first, it
will be hard to know where those limits are because he may not be aware of
them. Even once he becomes aware of them, he may not express himself
clearly or at all, so be prepared for surprises. You may find many of his
responses to be non-sequiturs or appearing to come out of nowhere. Much of
his internal logic may be hard for him to express in words, and he may
manifest his responses behaviourally. He may either not respond, or you may
see frustration and anger. If he has a very limited sense of how to
modulate his response, he may take some time in learning how to adjust his
responses from almost unnoticeable displays of emotion to dramatic, yet
appropriate expression.
If he can't be engaged on a formal, abstract level and
most persons with AS can't with these kinds of challenges you might want to
ask him if he has interests through which he can literally act out his
responses. Despite a high level of abstraction in formal speech, many
persons with AS are very concrete thinkers. Their imaginations can be
engaged by encouraging them to express themselves through talk of things of
special interest. Once you are introduced to what that interest is, you
won't have any trouble finding the "on" button. The challenge for you, and
your AS client, is to find the "off" button, and to know how and when to
press it. Special educators and parents of Asperger syndrome children have
found learning to be effective when it can be hooked to the child's unique
interests, and that could be a route appropriate for a reluctant adult
client.
Reluctance to consider and accept change, and a general
conservatism about acting affirmatively may be an essential part of your
client's character. While some persons with AS act impulsively with respect
to major life decisions, many others are hesitant and cautious. Within
their particular areas of interest or expertise, they may be very high
performers, but this high level of activity rarely translates to other parts
of their lives. There, movement towards change can seem excruciatingly slow
to others. In making progress in these other areas, it is essential for
your client to experience success at taking baby steps with positive
reinforcement every step of the way. People with AS do not respond well to
negative discipline, and are very sensitive to what they often misperceive
as criticism or disapproval by others.
As his counsellor, a major role you might to assume is
in helping him deal with his own impatience. Once he experiences progress,
he'll want to be successful at times when it just doesn't seem to happen.
These are refractory periods, and you have undoubtedly experienced them as a
therapist in working with other clients with developmental disorders.
Sometimes it seems like one step forward and four backward. The saving
grace is that with adults, the periods are shorter and their ability to
express gratitude and pride in their own progress is a powerful incentive to
future learning. Reflection on this progress is something that his wife can
also provide him, because her experience of him is constant and occurs in
real time.
I hope this very long post will prove to be of some help
to you. Asking the questions you did has gotten me much more in touch with
the actual processes I've used that have been effective for me.
I hope some of them work for you as well.
Persons wishing to contact the author
can do so by e-mail to:
rogernmeyer@earthlink.net
Correspondence to:
Roger N. Meyer
"Of a Different Mind"
606 SE 76th Avenue
Portland, OR 97215-2238
http://trainland.tripod.com/rogern.htm
© Roger N. Meyer
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